Curse

twicky_kid · Aug 20, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Its fine not to agree with me. That doesn't mean its not happening.

Go listen to Weapon of choice #43 from last week. MTG had this exact same problem as GW does right now. Power 9 killed everything in the future that game could offer. No matter what they did they could never create anything more powerfull. They had to seperate the cards into different formats: T2, extended, and Extended 1.5. This wouldn't get boring because the of the 6 month release schedule. MTG releases a new set every 4 months. They would not be able to do that if the only tournament format was Extended. No one would by the new set becaue the most powerfull cards already existed.

That is sole reason why MTG has stayed around and continued to reinvent itself. If I could use power 9 in T2 it would be grossly overpowered and nothing would stand a chance from the new editions. This is also the reason we were only given a handfull of skills fron factions that were a little bit more powerful than the skills from prophocies.

They can have the a GvG format for extended where you can play any skills. A GvG format for the new chapters with the new and core skills only. This gives you a bigger range of choice while not having gross imbalances. They could also break the ladder up into different divisions. The winners from each division could then go to the live tournements.

There many improvements to the game that need to be done for pvp play to survive and be competative.

fallot · Aug 20, 2006, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

is not the idea of the game that you may encounter something unexpected?

that you may be beaten by somebody who comes up with the surprise i gotcha build?

were not the pvp players the ones asking no demanding more choices so it would not get boring?

No, that would be a totally retarded competitive game. Where you are beaten at the point of entering the battle. Where you are beaten because there are so many skills that games become little more than build vs. build. It takes the depth out of the game, the tactics, the strategy. There needs to be some sort of limit to the amount of skills this game has eventually.

Tortoise · Aug 20, 2006, 05:32 PM // 17:32

I'm gonna make a longer post later but so far this little quickie:

The claims that more skills will lead to a more gimmicky game are completely unsupported. So far we have no reason to believe that and any reference towards MTG in that aspect is simply irrelevant. Contrary to MTG Anet has the tools to make retro-active changes to old skillsets and has the ability to overhaul the fight system as soon as the game becomes too gimmicky. Anet has far more ability to keep balance then MTG ever had...

The guild wars universe just recently had a huge expansion in which the available skills almost got doubled. Did it lead to a more gimmicky meta-game? No, not at all. In fact, factions has given us a couple options that make balanced builds even more effective: expell hexes, empathic removal, AoD, Blessed Light are just a couple of examples off skills that are added that have strengthened the non-gimmick builds. Stating that more skills will necessary lead to more gimmicks is a completely unsupported claim. Where is the evidence??

At the moment the evidence seems to point out there will always be a good mixture between balance and gimmicks. The fact that Izzy himself does not fancy a Paper/Rock/Scissor game should be reason enough to not simply prophecise doom without any compelling arguments.

I've really had enough of all this doomsaying. People have been shouting that 'GW will be dead in two months' for more then a year now and so far GW is still going strong. I will not deny that GW suffers from a couple of problems and could use a couple off improvements, but so far none of those are related to gimmicks. I haven't been able to listen to the last WoC yet but what I gathered from discussions about it doesn't point to a significant inherent problem in GW but mostly to stuff that could be resolved with a couple improvements (higher unlock rates/tournament editions/easier groupmaking abilities/more tiered PvP, etc...)

At the moment top PvP is as vibrant as ever and possibly even more competitive then it ever was. I don't see it dying out pretty soon...

pork soldier · Aug 20, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Just for the record: Henchspike, +16 beast EoE, + hall skip used to be the most fun EVAR.

dgb · Aug 21, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Did it lead to a more gimmicky meta-game? No, not at all. In fact, factions has given us a couple options that make balanced builds even more effective: expell hexes, empathic removal, AoD, Blessed Light are just a couple of examples off skills that are added that have strengthened the non-gimmick builds. Stating that more skills will necessary lead to more gimmicks is a completely unsupported claim. Where is the evidence??

No, we've just had two seasons now, one utterly dominated by triple smite and SB/RI and now the last one dominated by thumper-builds as a response to ritualists. Gimmicky builds? No way.

Tortoise · Aug 21, 2006, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Saying that the previous season was dominated by triple smite and SB/RI is pretty silly. Both of them just appeared in the final 5 days of a season and both off them vanished without a huge nerf.

I will agree that thumpers were dominantly this season but it's important to realize that has nothing to do with the actual increase off skills but more with inherent problems with the ritualist class (and thumpers) that can be very easily fixed in a balance update.

When you look at it then the top teams are still able to consistently beat all these gimmicks and the claim that guild wars has evolved to 'rock, paper, scissors' is completely false. Just because there is a gimmick overpowered doesn't mean that the game has evolved into 'rock, paper, scissors'. You haven't lost the match right away when you're facing thumpers and you can perfectly beat them without investing into more hate then you would normally invest in.

The point here is simple: balanced has always stood a chance, and good balanced builds have been pulling off more wins then losses against even unbalanced gimmick builds. Every case we've known of right now of a gimmick rampaging through the ladder has been stopped by a simple balance update. Just because there are gimmick builds doesn't mean the game has been turned into 'rock, paper, scissors'. As long as that is the case the claim that more skills will lead to a 'gimmick' problem is unsupported...

twicky_kid · Aug 21, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

The problem is Tortoise is that the balance updates happen AFTER the season is over with. Sure it won't be as powerful next season. By then we have another chapter that introduces a new class and new skills. Then we have a new season without any kind of balance update to the new skills.

After season is over the imbalances are fixed. Every single season is going to be dominated by a gimmick as long as new content is being introduced.

If they keep nerfing the game this way the new content is all that will carry it. New chapter comes out season starts. After season skills get nerfed. Have a fun season while we release the beta of the next chapter and nerf what was used during the fun season.

Sorry if I don't want to play w/e new gimmick came with the new chapters ever 6 months just to stay competative.

Honestly balance builds are going out. Mesmers are seeing less and less play. Instead rangers and warriors are being added for more pressure. Why try to shut down the monk the entire battle when you can pressure out all of his energy and roll the team. The top team balance builds you speak of are not very balanced. They run either heavy offense or heavy defense with gankers.

some guy · Aug 21, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Yes, this stops the capping b4 the game starts in AB, I like it

Spura · Aug 21, 2006, 11:01 AM // 11:01

Oh and I've also seen a lot of complaints that things always get nerfed because of pvp. Guess you all forgot about things like Protective Bond. You know, that thingie that made you lose only 5% of health in one hit that was used by 55 monks before prot spirit? It didn't get nerfed because of pvp, I'll tell you that.

Kyp Jade · Aug 24, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

For Every gimmick there are very simple counters, and to any hall player, I should never hear that EoE was nerfed, it still bombs as good as it ever has in halls and is still a great holding tactic.

Place EoE when you begin to be pressured too much.
Go out with as much pressure on thier teams as u can
Leave a guy with a res sig out of range.
GG youve justed bombed 4/5 of the players in the hall, and just have to chain res and kill the other 2 hereos.

Now start a dance party for the last 30 seconds of the match as the other teams have no ghost to cap with.

dgb · Aug 25, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Saying that the previous season was dominated by triple smite and SB/RI is pretty silly. Both of them just appeared in the final 5 days of a season and both off them vanished without a huge nerf.

Triple smite was well around before the last five days. SB/RI showed up late but it did dominate the season in terms of how brutal it was

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

I will agree that thumpers were dominantly this season but it's important to realize that has nothing to do with the actual increase off skills but more with inherent problems with the ritualist class (and thumpers) that can be very easily fixed in a balance update.

First you claim that it was not caused by the increase of skills and then you were claimed that it was caused by the ritualist. How is the ritualist not an increase of skills (or are all the ritualists running around with empty skill bars?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

When you look at it then the top teams are still able to consistently beat all these gimmicks and the claim that guild wars has evolved to 'rock, paper, scissors' is completely false. Just because there is a gimmick overpowered doesn't mean that the game has evolved into 'rock, paper, scissors'. You haven't lost the match right away when you're facing thumpers and you can perfectly beat them without investing into more hate then you would normally invest in.

That's why the Last Pride were frequently losing to SB/RI in the dying days of Season 2? If you honestly think that you can beat them without investing more into counters than usual, I ask why can a #GWP PUG guild get into the top 50 with thumpers? It's coming damn close to being that way unless you're at the utter bleeding edge like EvIL that you've lost before the gates open.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

The point here is simple: balanced has always stood a chance, and good balanced builds have been pulling off more wins then losses against even unbalanced gimmick builds. Every case we've known of right now of a gimmick rampaging through the ladder has been stopped by a simple balance update. Just because there are gimmick builds doesn't mean the game has been turned into 'rock, paper, scissors'. As long as that is the case the claim that more skills will lead to a 'gimmick' problem is unsupported...

This isn't the case though. Look at the impact SB/RI had on the ladder in the dying days of season 2. It was rolling everything that it came up against. Direct result of more skills. It still rolls everything it comes up against if it survives long enough against four physicals and a tainted.

The fact that gimicks go through and rampage through the ladder is precisely the problem. I don't care that they get balanced weeks later, it's a problem because seasons get horribly distorted by them. The problem is these gimicks floating around at the moment make balanced ridiculous to play.

Got Convert x2/3. Check
Got Shields Up!. Check
Got Wards, Extinguishx2 and Shadow of Fear. Check
Got Ranger interupts or someother way to shutdown a ritualist. Check

Yay, we've allready sunk a character worth of skill slots into countering gimicks that are floating around at the moment.